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标题: [转载] 调查称72%中国留学生毕业后在美国站不住脚 [打印本页]

作者: cicibb 时间: 2013-5-19 15:46 标题: 调查称72%中国留学生毕业后在美国站不住脚

2012年，有近20万中国学生赴美留学 ,留美的费用，四年下来大多在150万至160万元人民币左右。回报如何呢？不久前《华尔街日报》一篇文章披露的几个数据耐人寻味：72%的中国留学生从国外大学毕业后，马上回国或短期工作后回国，在美国基本站不住脚。

美国的高等教育雄踞世界第一。但美国前五十强的大学，除了几所州立大学外，大多数每年只招收一两千人。20万的中国留美学生，99%和一流大学不沾边。

不久前，《纽约时报》一篇报道指出，三分之一的美国大学财政状况比经济危机前差许多。美国的学生越来越难付得起学费，逼着大学纷纷以奖学金的形式给予折扣。在这种状况下，支付慷慨学费的中国学生，自然会成为大家的争夺对象。

这也是“造假”成为留美主流的原因之一。中国学生提交的留学推荐信、高中成绩单等造假，在美国媒体上连篇累牍地报道，大学方面当然也非常明白。一些业内人士透露，即使是常春藤名校，也知道自己接到的中国申请材料大部分是伪造的。但是，许多学校盯着中国学生的学费，对此睁一只眼闭一只眼。这就使中国的留美学生素质越来越低。留美变成一种消费……

这种状况，随着留美热的继续升温只会不断恶化：录取标准过低、中国学生越来越多、越来越扎堆、越来越自成一体、和美国社会不接触……今天的留美大潮，预示着四五年后的海归大潮，使海归进一步过剩、进一步贬值……

如此盲目的留美潮之所以长年汹涌，一大原因在于中国家长对美国高等教育体系的误解。如今美国，连制造业中的工人也有一半以上受过大学教育，大学生只是个“普通劳动者”，不属于专业阶层。要晋身为专业阶层，必须接受研究院级别的教育，包括医学院、工学院、商学院、法学院、教育学院和一般的文理学院等。若以成为专业人士为目标，那么进入大学的目的，首先是为了进良好的研究院“卡位”，而不是毕业后马上就找个工作。

所以，那些把大学当作就业“敲门砖”的人，在美国本科教育中几乎找不到法学、医学等实用课程。商学教育虽然在美国大学本科很流行，但除了沃顿和麻省理工斯隆商学院等几个例外，大多数都是低端的。中国的家长和学生把大学当成职业培训所，使商科成为最热的留美本科专业；仿佛150万元的投入，就是为了培养一个商店里的出纳或公司最底层的会计。这样还怎么可能得到教育回报？.

作者: 远远娘 时间: 2013-5-19 17:51

不是留美不好，是有些孩子不适合留美，之前没有做好相应的准备。
即使做好了准备，也不一定就一切顺遂，即使美国本土孩子也是如此吧。大学其实不过是人生的另一个阶段，一个孩子的长成，是许多因素综合作用的结果，留学只能是生命中的一部分，但不一定是最重要的部分。.

作者: TOM妈 时间: 2013-5-19 20:02

不是金子在哪里都发不了光..

作者: marymama1 时间: 2013-5-19 21:50 标题: 回复 3楼TOM妈的帖子

我认为:适应不了国内,在国内不拔尖的人不见得到了到了国外就成了拔尖人才了.

作者: liuweianan 时间: 2013-5-19 22:10

但现在中国也是这样，大学生只是个“普通劳动者”，基本上人人都有大学文凭.

作者: caijunwei 时间: 2013-5-20 11:09

那些掏得起钱留学的家长还真没多少想过投资回报率，这个是赔本的买卖。.

作者: SHINE-ON 时间: 2013-5-20 11:18

同学是中国人，老师是中国人，这叫哪门子的留学

作者: 天蝎老妈 时间: 2013-5-20 12:18

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作者: shyangying 时间: 2013-5-20 14:36

也是因为今年老美收紧工作签证，留不下来了.

作者: HFTony妈 时间: 2013-5-20 16:25 标题: 回复 8楼天蝎老妈的帖子

绿卡也没那么好拿的，有很多条件的！.

作者: 兔子的姐姐 时间: 2013-5-20 18:10

兔子去留学，并不是为了留下来而去的，是因为对中国的本科教育非常失望，也希望能行万里路，读万卷书。

但是个人觉得还是回到中国好，机会多。我不希望孩子留在美国，就一个孩子，还要隔岸相望。.

作者: Eddie爸爸 时间: 2013-5-22 19:47

关键看个人目标和定位，凤姐也能在美国站住脚。.

作者: pp_dream 时间: 2013-5-22 21:26

我想这是因为这几年留学生人数激增，但job market并无太大变化，甚至有所收紧。所以会看到很大比例的人数回国。

目前留美的大学/硕士/博士至少有20多万吧，毕业生算5万好了，我认为5万毕业生里留下1万都是很不容易的，每年的H1B额度不够分的，而且job market虽然好转但不可能接受很多外国毕业生。今年H1B额度很快用完了，说明市场趋好，但这些额度是由中/印/韩等国家分享。

哪些专业容易找到工作并接纳外籍毕业生？自然还是STEM，自然是学历高了好，硕士至少吧。

留和归是不同选择，我觉得说不清哪个更优，不是可以apple to apple地比，但不过最好不要夹中间，即不要归了又想移民，即使改了主意移民也要早做改变。凡事赶早不赶晚是有道理的。.

作者: pp_dream 时间: 2013-5-22 23:19 标题: Chinese Students Struggle for Returns on Education in U.S.

华尔街日报文章，写得有点火力太强

不过看看也无妨。

Chinese Students Struggle for Returns on Education in U.S.
March 27, 2013, 2:53 PM .
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealti ... n-education-in-u-s/

This story originally appeared on The Wall Street Journal’s Chinese website under the headline “中国学生如何把美国文凭回报最大化“

Mere figures tell a complex story of explosive migration, wealth and cultural value in the East as the number of Chinese students attending U.S. colleges has grown exponentially in recent years. But tangible returns on such hefty educational investments have yet to be seen.

There were 194,029 Chinese students studying in the U.S. in the 2011-2012 academic year, representing the largest group of international students from a single country and accounting for 25.4% of all foreign students studying in the U.S. The figure also marks a 23% increase from just the year before and a 207% increase from a decade ago, according to the Institute of International Education.

Attending a U.S. institution of higher learning is a costly venture for Chinese families, more than 60% of whom privately fund students’ costs, according to the IIE. Unlike American students who are often eligible for in-state tuition breaks, financial aid and numerous scholarships, most Chinese students must foot the full bill, which could run in the neighborhood of $200,000 just for tuition and fees over four years. In 2011, China’s per capita GDP was $5445, according to the World Bank.

Charlotte Fan, now a 23-year-old working in asset management for BlackRock in New York City, has more to add to that bill. Originally from Shanghai, Ms. Fan’s journey from China to her eventual alma mater at Duke University also cost her thousands of dollars in TOEFL and SAT classes, English tutors and flights to and from Hong Kong and Seoul just to take the SAT, which isn’t administered in mainland China.

As more students race across the Pacific for an American college degree, more are also finding themselves at odds with an unfamiliar culture. Chinese students, accustomed to an education system of rote memorization and heavy testing, struggle to acclimate to the American liberal arts system, which emphasizes analytical and critical thinking, university officials say. The influx of students from China has also allowed many to self-segregate and study through weekends, stripping them of the social scene that dominates an American college experience.

Michigan State University has 2,845 undergraduate students from China this year, up from just 43 in 2005. Peter Briggs, director of MSU’s Office for International Students and Scholars, notes that while there are Chinese students who take on social leadership positions and are hungry for internships, a large number still fail to fully engage in all aspects of American campus life.

“We could do a lot better to see groups intermixing because the ideals of international education are that we learn from the world’s diversity, we’re all missing out if we fail to engage,” Mr. Briggs says. “But if [Chinese students] also are not reaching out as proactively as they ought to, they’re not necessarily taking the fullest advantage of what we would consider a full bachelor’s degree program. I’d even take it one step further — why are they in the U.S. compared to Australia or Britain where they don’t have the liberal arts that is the cornerstone for American education?”

That failure for Chinese students to integrate, combined with the price tag for an American education, frustrates students like Jocelyn Jia, a 22-year-old communications major from Hainan. Now at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Ms. Jia is seizing every opportunity to make American friends and experience what she couldn’t have if she had attended college in China.

“I think [many Chinese students] are wasting their money. They spend a lot of money to come, but if you’re here to hang out with the Chinese in America, why don’t you just go back to study in China?” she says. “Most international students study all the time and don’t go out, they think I’m too crazy and ask me, ‘Why do you go out every weekend? Why do you drink?’ But I study when I study and I have fun when I have fun. If you just come to study and only hang out with Chinese people, all you bring with you back to China is the diploma, it’s a piece of paper, that’s it.”

Integration isn’t as easy as it seems for many Chinese students who struggle just to get by academically, Mr. Briggs says. Classes with Chinese students see a dramatic decrease in class participation. Students are sometimes forced to choose between working hard to assimilate culturally and keeping their grades up — a failure to be college-ready that could be linked to the large number of falsified application documents as the chance to study in America becomes increasingly novel. An estimated 90% of recommendation letters are fake, 70% of essays are written by someone else other than the applicant and 50% of high school transcripts are manipulated, according to Zinch China, a consulting group that advises American colleges.

That tradeoff is costing Chinese students dearly. Ms. Jia says that her most rewarding takeaways from college in the U.S. are the experiences outside the classroom. She has learned to be more independent and has acquired much stronger communication skills. It’s also those soft skills behind the diploma that employers like L.E.K. Consulting’s Shanghai office seek from graduates who return to China, known as “hai gui,” or “sea turtles.”

“We do hire Chinese students from the U.S. and the U.K because their English is better, and what I want out of it is a more mature person who is better socially,” says Ken Chen, a partner in L.E.K.’s Shanghai office in charge of recruiting. “I look for people who are doing something different rather than just studying or social activities that are not limited to other Chinese people like Chinese Club. And that’s what I think an American college education gets you is knowing how to socialize, having not just memorized things but emotional intelligence and knowing how to think and how to solve problems.”

The number of students returning to China after studying abroad has also jumped significantly in recent years — to 134,800 in 2010, up 375% from 2005, according to figures from China’s Ministry of Education. A recent survey of Chinese abroad by recruiting agency Zhilian Zhaopin found that 72% return to China after graduation or a few years of work.

But contrary to many students’ expectations, having the American diploma isn’t a golden ticket to employment in China. Zhilian Zhaopin’s report also found that more than 70% of employers won’t give preferential treatment to haigui candidates, and almost 8% say they actually prefer not to hire “hai gui.” Reasons for that include mismatch in salary expectations as well as “hai guis’” lack of personal connections, or “guan xi,” compared to their Chinese-educated counterparts.

A recent study by Wei Sun, an economics graduate student at the University of California-Santa Barbara, found that “hai gui” venture capitalists in China proved to be less productive and less successful than their Chinese-educated peers. The opportunity costs of losing “guanxi” while abroad and being trained overseas proved to be too different from the demands of the Chinese market. But Ms. Sun suggests that with enough governmental support to incentivize young people to return to China with greater human capital, “hai guis” have an opportunity to further contribute to a flourishing Chinese economy.

“I think all the money invested for an American education is worth it, I feel like they have accumulated better human capital, but I think in the long run it’s better for China, even if it might take longer for those students and parents to get the return on their investment,” Ms. Sun says. “But they are going to be successful in the long run.”

And Ms. Fan, who was able to find a social-school balance, says her Duke education was worth the deep investment. After working for eight months, the value of social and networking skills have become apparent, she says.

“There’s an old saying in China that the best way of using money is to invest in your child’s education, and my whole family believes in this,” Ms. Fan says. “I’ve learned a lot and changed a lot in college — not just to learn knowledge, but more importantly the way of thinking, creativity, communication, the soft skills you never learn from books that you learn from day-to-day life and interacting with all the smart kids around you in school. Those sorts of things a Chinese education doesn’t focus on.”

– Emmeline Zhao.

作者: danhui 时间: 2013-5-23 08:34

28%的可以留下来，挺好的了。.

作者: HFTony妈 时间: 2013-5-23 08:50 标题: 回复 13楼pp_dream 的帖子

pp 说的对，我朋友今年也申请了H1B签证，估计以前HW没给他办这个签证，现在这个公司不一样了，刚去就办了，所以蛮开心的，在San Digeo也买好房子了，今年准备带着母亲家人在加州玩一下。

作者: 奕辰妈妈 时间: 2013-5-23 09:06 标题: 回复 15楼danhui 的帖子

是呀，其实没人算算国内大学生毕业的就业率，算算的话肯定也是不高的，难道也不要读大学了。.

作者: 麦兜兜 时间: 2013-5-23 09:48

也不一定非得留在美国，回来也不错呀.

作者: susan_he 时间: 2013-5-23 11:09 标题: 回复 18楼麦兜兜的帖子

是啊，又不是為了留在美國才去留學的呀.

作者: 俐瑶 时间: 2013-5-23 12:22

如果在美国前100大学毕业，不管怎样，英语总过关了吧，回来还怕找不到工作吗？即使到新东方教教英语，收入也很可观呢。.

作者: heart 时间: 2013-5-23 13:35

美国给了留学的名额并没有给了同样多的就业名额，所以回国也是一种选择而且是不错的选择，本来去美国读书也是一种选择，为什么读完书不能有选择呢？更何况去那里读书很多是为了逃避高考这个残酷的鬼门关，本来就是曲线求学，拐来拐去的太正常不过了。至于资金投入完全是自愿付出，说到回报可以问问有多少是计较这个呢？中国人自有自己的一套思维逻辑，无法只用经济和就业来理解，一旦脱开这些功利性思维就能理解了。.

作者: 大小双的妈妈 时间: 2013-5-23 13:37

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作者: poorma 时间: 2013-5-23 14:33

引用:

原帖由 兔子的姐姐 于 2013-5-20 18:10 发表 $\"\"$
兔子去留学，并不是为了留下来而去的，是因为对中国的本科教育非常失望，也希望能行万里路，读万卷书。

但是个人觉得还是回到中国好，机会多。我不希望孩子留在美国，就一个孩子，还要隔岸相望。

是啊.

作者: 丰禾妈 时间: 2013-5-23 18:34

中国人就是一元思维太顽固，为啥不是美国就是中国的，毕业了去其他国家可以伐？留学的目的是为了跳出猪圈，开拓国际视野，学习多元文化和思维，将来思路会不一样，眼光会不一样，所谓登高才能望远，美国是世界第一强国，拥有世界最好的教育，和最先进的信息，将来找工作，可以全世界去应聘，爷娘不舍得小囡，可以跟了一道去的啊

[ 本帖最后由丰禾妈于 2013-5-23 20:58 编辑 ].

作者: liuweianan 时间: 2013-5-23 19:49

干嘛老要算投资回报，人总希望自己的孩子生活在一个吃住都安全的环境中。我觉的蛮好。.

作者: coin 时间: 2013-5-23 21:45

引用:

原帖由 poorma 于 2013-5-23 14:33 发表 $\"\"$

是啊

拿了一本中国护照，全世界找工作，你以为是外地人到上海来混啊，哪有这么容易.

作者: coin 时间: 2013-5-23 21:47

引用:

原帖由 丰禾妈 于 2013-5-23 18:34 发表 $\"\"$
中国人就是一元思维太顽固，为啥不是美国就是中国的，毕业了去其他国家可以伐？留学的目的是为了跳出猪圈，开拓国际视野，学习多元文化和思维，将来思路会不一样，眼光会不一样，所谓登高才能望远，美国是世界第一强 ...

拿了一本中国护照，全世界找工作，你以为是外地人到上海来混啊，哪有这么容易.

作者: liuweianan 时间: 2013-5-24 06:46

上海人拿张上海身份证也不混.

作者: liuweianan 时间: 2013-5-24 06:50

上海人拿张上海身份证蹲了上海混也不好混，这几年叫做中国形势好，经济好坏也有周期性。.

作者: Robinson妈妈 时间: 2013-5-24 07:49

严重同意！

引用:

原帖由 丰禾妈 于 2013-5-23 18:34 发表 $\"\"$
中国人就是一元思维太顽固，为啥不是美国就是中国的，毕业了去其他国家可以伐？留学的目的是为了跳出猪圈，开拓国际视野，学习多元文化和思维，将来思路会不一样，眼光会不一样，所谓登高才能望远，美国是世界第一强 ...

作者: 丰禾妈 时间: 2013-5-24 08:04

引用:

原帖由 coin 于 2013-5-23 21:45 发表 $\"\"$

拿了一本中国护照，全世界找工作，你以为是外地人到上海来混啊，哪有这么容易

这种思路虽然和实际情况脱节，但这是ZF的问题，不是个人的问题，要是拿台湾护照呢？所以要民主啊，否则就是被圈在猪圈里。.

作者: rachelmom 时间: 2013-5-24 08:20

留学就留学，为什么一定要留在当地？

前段时间看到个帖子，台湾留学怎么怎么不好，原因也是留不下来，可是留学本来不就是冲着人家教育水平高去的吗？达到这个目的就可以了呀，至于就业，难道在当地读书就非要当地就业啊？.

作者: 真好妈咪 时间: 2013-5-24 08:35 标题: 回复 24楼丰禾妈的帖子

相当得支持您的观点！

作者: 丰禾妈 时间: 2013-5-24 08:52 标题: 回复 33楼真好妈咪的帖子

谢谢！既有西方教育背景，又有本土文化背景，将来可以进跨国企业，现在是地球村了，一个国家如果孤立封闭是难以发展和生存下去的。金胖子有大哥撑着，那是特例。.

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